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The Rediff Interview/Pritish Nandy

'What is more criminal? To sit in New Delhi and allow the masjid to be broken, or to encourage the people to break the masjid?'

Do you think you will be able to persuade Thackeray to tone down his diatribe against Muslims?

I think I can persuade people to look at other viewpoints also. Sure.

Thackeray has gone back to his earlier stance on Ayodhya, since he says Muslims only vote for the Samajwadi Party and not the Sena. Again, it seems the Sena is returning to Hindutva...

( Immediately) At the same time, Muslims are saying that they find themselves to be more secure in the BJP-Sena government than the Congress government. What is more criminal? To sit in New Delhi and allow the masjid to be broken, or to encourage the people to break the masjid? I think there is no difference between the two acts. The Congress claims to be secular and yet did nothing when the masjid was being broken. It's like the Pope who kept silent when Hitler was killing the Jews.

Thackeray says he is ruling Maharashtra by remote control. How much of the remote control factor will work with you?

Balasaheb Thackeray is leader of the Shiv Sena. The Shiv Sena has endorsed my candidature. I will always give him the respect of listening to what he has to say.

What if there are differences of opinion between you and him?

If there are, I will always tell him upfront. He will live out his own dharma. I will live out mine.

Do you foresee any problem between you and him?

I would like to believe that nothing will ever change. I will remain the same person that I have always been. I do not anticipate that this will ever change, whatever I may do.

Will you now pay regular visits to Matoshree (Thackeray's home) like all other Shiv Sainiks?

Nobody has asked me to do that. You see, these are all myths, I hear. I have no idea about these things.

But I would be happy to meet Thackeray.

Having been independent-minded all along, how can you react like other Sainiks to Thackeray's call?

Where am I abdicating that? And why should I abdicate that? I have not abdicated that and I have no intention of abdicating that.

Earlier, Chandrika Kenia was nominated by the Sena to the Rajya Sabha who, after her election, returned to the Congress party. Naturally, after this, Sainiks have resented 'outsiders' being nominated by their party, since their loyalties are suspect. Do you agree?

That is the internal matter of the Sena. I see no problem in my being elected to the Rajya Sabha. But, I cannot answer this question, only the Sena can answer that question.

Recently, you wrote an article for Rediff On The NeT criticising Pakistani artistes performing in Bombay. You also defended the attack against M F Husain...When exactly did you stop being a liberal?

Well, I have two views on it. First, if you are talking about the Ghulam Ali concert, my view on this is very clear. Sometimes art and culture should be subservient to the needs of the nation. When Pakistan-inspired terrorists come to Kashmir and kill 40, 50 Kashmiri Hindu Pandits and vanish, and at the same time to talk about cultural freedom, it looks inhuman. Life is not compartmentalised. Your father came and raped my mother. But you have got nothing against me, we and you are friends... It's a hypothetical issue.

We cannot abstract sections of our life separately and deal with them as separate issues. And, therefore I agree with the Sena. They are not saying that Ghulam Ali is a bad singer. They are not saying that Jansher Khan is a rotten player. They may be great. But this is not the time to enjoy Ghulam Ali's ghazals. Get out of Kashmir and stop terrorising people over there. And, I think it is a very good response.

But don't you think the Shiv Sena terrorised Muslims in much the same way during the Bombay riots? How can you differentiate between Kashmir and Bombay?

I am saying that there is a difference in fundamentals. Whatever might have happened in India is done by one bunch of Indians to another. It is treated as an internal matter of our country. There is a fight. There is a campaign. There are millions of us who have fought and campaigned for minorities in India. That is one issue. But when people from another nation come and terrorise our people and then expect that their cultural people must be given a warm welcome, I don't think it is worth it.

How can you defend the killing of human beings, be it by Pakistanis or by the people of our country, by stating that it is an internal matter?

The difference is, one relates to two different nations and the other is between the two communities in India. For every story you give me of Hindus killing Muslims, I will give you three examples of Hindus protecting Muslims. My father, during the riots, protected hundreds of Muslims. I am not taking credit for that, there are hundreds of such examples. I can give you hundreds of examples of Muslim soldiers who laid down their lives for India. I am saying that it is the internal matter of India as to how Hindus treat Muslims or Muslims treat Hindus. But how India must treat Pakistanis and Pakistanis treat India, it is a matter of two nations. So, it is a separate issue.

But in any case, in internal matters too, the Muslims of India feel threatened by the BJP-Sena?

No, you must also realise who is the biggest defender of Muslims in India today. A Hindu, Mulayam Singh Yadav. So therefore, I am saying that India's solution lies within India. And the solution lies in enlightening different communities. It's nothing to do with the Hindu-Muslim problem. Today, the caste Hindu and the schedule caste Hindu are fighting a pitched battle against one another in some cities of India just like Hindus and Muslims in some other states. It is nothing to do with who is a Hindu or who is a Mussalman. There are other issues that are finding their voice through violence.

And what we must do is to reach the heart of the issue. And the heart of the issue changes from state to state and city to city. You may have a view on Bombay riots. Some of them may have views on the Hyderabad riots or the Moradabad riots. Or the Bhiwandi riots. Some communities are aggressive and sometimes, other communities are aggressive. You cannot set a standard view nation-wide. I think, we need a better understanding. A better communication skill to build bridges between different communities and castes.

Don't you think this decision of yours will upset the Muslim community?

I don't see that situation at all. I believe that Muslims nation-wide know me for what I am. They will still respect me for what I have done and what I have fought for.

Aren't you being an opportunist by agreeing to be nominated to the Rajya Sabha by the Sena?

I am certainly being opportunistic. I have no doubts about it. I have the opportunity now to believe that somebody has nominated me to make an impact on Indian politics. And, I have taken the opportunity. If you call that opportunism, so be it. If you call that the right of an individual who's criticised politics, who actually hopes to change it by entering it, you can call it opportunist.

You mean you don't mind being called an opportunist for doing something good for the system?

I am trying to find out that something which I can do.

Pritish Nandy, continued